Capital Punishment. Can you do it yourself?

If a drunk man hits a pedestrian on the road and kills him, punishing him will not bring back the pedestrian that passed away. That doesn't mean punishment that is metted out won't reform him? 

And it's not called brain wash when you listen to someone else, it's being open to new ideas and doing the best you can in difficult circumstances. I'm not going to let a monster turn me into one. 

oops: here the link TF- http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-prison-industry-in-the-united-states-big-business-or-a-new-form-of-slavery/8289

Thanks Saro. Interesting. But I wonder if the same is true in India. on an aside, in that case why is the national rural employment garuntee program loss making? Is it just corruption or something else I am missing?

TF: I'm going to refer you to this article I read a while ago. Some of the reasons it's easier to profit out of a prison is mentioned in the article. I thought it was interesting, and it opened my mind to this possibility. Of course in saying that, I'm ignoring the mumbo on human rights. It's important to protect it, but let's just say for the sake of the discussion, it doesn't exist.

Jayan: If I know right the Tihar jail has some popodums as well. I'd rather have them do more strenous work.. but I guess we can't always win!

Nandini: :) The paragraph should be read whole:- Nandini, I oppose the death penalty. If someone close to me were raped, I would want them to be hanged. That is my personal verdict. But if someone told me, that keeping that person alive may help prevent other rapes in the future, then I would forget about avenging, look past my own selfish desires and do anything I could to help.  

You don't know that I haven't had a personal experience with rape, either through myself or my friends, or from working with an NGO. And I don't see the need to bring it into the discourse here, to validate my opinion. Hope this addresses what you were talking about. 

PS. There's just been another rape, in a bus.. reports just coming in now. Even while the the knell continues to sound for those already in prison..apparently, death is not feared as much, nor life respected as much. 

For all who say the people in jail can be used to generate more revenue than the cost to maintain them, my question is this. If this can be done with the cost for security also adding to cost, then isn't it possible that it is possible to use all citizens in the country to generate more revenues than required to sustain them. Then why are we not able to eleminate porvery line all together?

I am not motivated by revenge or hatred. I am thinking in terms of just economics. We do not have enough food for all. So in the priority list, shouldn't the criminal come last? So wouldn't eleminating criminals at least the most heinous ones free up resources to support the others. If we are able to do population control and other stuff and have enough for all others, I am all for teaching them meditation or whatever and doing what it takes to reform them and make them better persons. 

We can't talk about economics when it comes to human beings. They are criminals. But essentially human beings.

Let them work and live.

For example, in Kerala, my home city Thrissur, there is a prison called " The Viyyoor central jail".

The inmates of there produces chapati (called freedom chapati) and chicken biriyani. When we had a State School Arts' festival (Asia's largest arts event) last year, those chapatis were served as breakfast.

So sometimes instead of we feeding them Chicken biriyani, they feed us the same.

Jayan - when we are forced to choose between lives we have to talk economics. In Mahabharata, Shakuni and his brothers were in jail and there was food for just one. They had to think economics and decided they all will give their food to Shakuni and so Shakuni survived. If they had thought humanity like you, even Shakuni would have died with the rest of them. If you are saying they can contribute more than they consume, why not so many million other Indians who are not even criminals? Why are we not able to eleminate poverty?

We don't have food for all !! well was reading THE ZAHIR by paulo coelho, where he mentions food as the cause of all primitive religions banning sex with multiple partners . The tribals saw that the population goes uncotrollable if we have uncontrolled sex and thus lack of food. 

Well then why doesn't economics suggest us to have a control over sex than having a big population and then eliminating people out of it. well this brings me back to my point, that the sexual urge in people is rising and is provoked by the present entertainment media. 

Also see as a norm to curb this condoms of a more smaller size (for around 12 years) has been introduced in of the developed countries( in europe , i forgot the name)

I agree. SOLITARY CONFINEMENT to rapists will serve more than the suggested capital punishment.

People here actually have accounts on bbc :o ?

PS> if anyone is interested, this is an interesting survey/lab experiment:  https://ssl.bbc.co.uk/labuk/experiments/morality/

@ the fool: i agree. would it change things if they were to earn their stay in jails? or better yet, if they were to generate a revenue that could be spent on the masses, to shelter and protect them? that way, while they wait out the lengthy trials, they are kept alive and at no expense to society? I just think that the death sentence is medieval, we can do more with them. Growing up in Malaysia, when I was a teenager, we had a mandatory tour of the city jail along with some talks from some of their prisoners. The tour wasn't fancy, it could be described as morbid or as I would say, it slapped reality in my face. I had one main take away, prison was not worth any crime for me. I can say that that was true for a most of the class that went with me, happy to also say, none of us have landed ourselves into prison just yet. I can't help but wish that that kind of exposure is made available to us, here in India. These talks, that I spoke about, may not relieve someone of their impoverished-ness, but it should impact, that one priviledged kid from being above the law. That one fella who thinks it's ok to rape to re thinking it.. that one dowry crazed pig from killing their daughter in law.. you know? 

@jayan menon: every drug you take, has been tested on animals at first stage, and before approval has been tested on humans. right from cosmetics, to food, to infant formula, to crocin, to eno.... - unless it says it wasn't tested. At no point did I say we'd rob them of their humanity. India is a growing market for these kinds of test groups. At this very point in time, there are thousands in our country taking experimental medicine for money. Voluntarily. And that is ok by Amnesty, as long as people understand what they're getting themselves into. Let's give this option to these guys... those of them that are still human, will, I'm sure want to absolve themselves of their guilt. Let's give them an opportunity to do so..

@stagg: I know it sounds cruel. Everyone who has an opinion has an agenda, and mine is to free animals used for testing. They are innocent, but we still need medicine... And I haven't seen any of the movies you mentioned! They stole my idea! 

PS. These are my opinions, and it's nice to have them getting picked on for a change. So thanks Jayan for the forum that's led to an interesting debate, and everyone else for opinions.

According to my opinion, testing medicines on humans without consent shall not be allowed.

Then secondly, we need to answer a question that "what must be the attitude of the state shown towards the rape accused"?

I do not agree with the answer "anger".

Instead I say it must be sympathy. We must punish them. But we can't be happy about ourselves in the meantime. Because those six men were part of the society.  We can't persecute them and celeberate thereafter.

As far as I see it, putting them in jail is the only punishment that can be done with sympathy.

Lol SaroSena's solution is worse than death. You think our govt has the balls to use convicted criminals as guinea pigs? Forget the opposition parties, human rights organizations from world over would be chewing our ass for this.

Btw theres a bunch of movies that have the exact same plot as this- DeathRace, The Condemned, Running Man and that video game movie with Gerard Butler...

Nandini, I oppose the death penalty. If someone close to me were raped, I would want them to be hanged. That is my personal verdict. But if someone told me, that keeping that person alive may help prevent other rapes in the future, then I would forget about avenging, look past my own selfish desires and do anything I could to help.  

Because I don't only love that one person, I love so many more and I don't want that to happen to them. There are so many uses for a person like that. We could test our cancer drugs on them and other experimental medicine. We could train them and use them for rescue missions, instead of putting the lives of our military men at risk. We could have them reformed and take them to schools to talk to our young ones, and tell them to respect women, because disrespecting one can cause a life of misery. A death sentence is wasting a life, that could other wise be used for so so much. I'm just thinking out loud here, some of these things are crazy to think of today. But it's happened before, and it can happen again.

 And feeding the culprits biryani, I think you may have added it in there to make the statement angrier, so I'm ignoring it. 

Well, Saro. I am against capital punishment for reasons of innocents being victimized. But I don't agree with your arguments in the Indian context. As far as India goes, people are a liability rather than an asset. There are millions of non criminal lives going waste in India as well and priority to educate/train them and use them more than reform rapists and use them. The feeding Biriyani someone mentioned is not just to make people angry - it is about non optimal utilization of resource. When every heat wave cold wave  and rains people are dying - the money spent on keeping one criminal alive could have been spent on giving food and shelter to so many people. So by choosing to spend money on keeping Kasab alive, the government wrote the death sentence for so many others whose lives would have been saved if the money had been spent on them instead.

I strongly disagree with you SaroSena. They are accused of doing a brutal crime. And you are advocating for doing brutal crimes on them.

We must only punish them. Not persecute them. No cruelty must be shown against. Its not suited for a civilised society. Let them be in jail. Let them work in jail.

I think it would look pretty badass.

I dont think the OP is questioning the method of execution- whether it be hanging, euthanasia or 1 of the contraptions from the Saw movies. OP seems to be against the idea of execution, because apparently "executioner" does not look good on the resume.

Exactly that is the reason.

Not just that "executioner does not look good on the resume", it looks worst. Many of us can't even think of adding that to our resume.

PS. I don't think it should be abolished, i think it should be converted to euthanesia or something like that. So that when their usefullness has run out, they can opt to die or continue living- obviously in captivity, under harsh conditions...

Jayan, I agree with you. I think I could execution someone, if there was reason enough. I mean that in all honesty, it's not that hard, as long as your conscience is clear. The only problem is, that I don't know if there are reasons out there that are strong/definitive enough to allow that rationale in my mind. Rape is a heinous crime, and the elephant in this room, the Delhi tragedy is just plain disgusting. I don't think the death sentence is any good. Someone said here that it acts as a deterrent to others who think about doing it.. I agree, that it would perhaps, make someone think twice. Assuming that someone who rapes 'thinks', and if they 'thought' about it, they would then also 'plan' it, and plan to not get caught. Whether they do or not, is a different matter. I don't think what happened was planned. Think about it. It was a spur of the moment, stupid.. i don't know what to call it.. and I don't know if we understand it. And that's what scares me. What made them do it? And I think it is important to answer that, to prevent. To understand the factors that made that happen. Killing them means we shave off the tip of the iceberg, without even knowing that it exists. Somewhere we have a system, we don't know about, that breeds men like this. And whether we like it or not, the answer or a part of it is with these men. And we can't just kill them, without knowing what it is.

Thank you for your opinion SaroSena.

I too agree with you about analysing the reasons behind. We can have a discussion about that.

I haven't said they must not be hanged (in this thread). I only said since I consider the job of hangman a non reputed job, I can't do it. Since I can't do it, I can't ask for anyone else to do it. If you can do it, you can ask for it.

"Now comes the job of an executioner. If you think some criminals are to be hanged, you must be ready to do it by yourself. Here you can't say you don't have the skill to do it. It is very easy to hang a man. Can you do it? If you can't do it, don't advocate for it"

Before talking anything ,just think about the intensity of the crime. The world doesn' reacts when it happens ,but when it does happens  they come up with stupid questions. Why would one hang a man? Everyone has their own opinions. What skill do you need ?You say its easy to hang a man. Do you work as a hangman or what  ? You say not to support Capital Punishment. But don't you think there should be a fullstop to all such henious crimes. There should a strict punishment for all the 6 perpetrators and people should think twice before doing that. This is sad.Baseless!

As far as I see in films, its an easy job to hang a man, because,

You will never ever fail in doing it. Success assured.

There is no physical or mental strain involved in it.

That makes it simple.

Every destined job should be reputed? If people ONLY did the "reputed" jobs, we wont have bus drivers, autowallas, cooks, waiters, watchmen and so on.

OP seems to be a troll.

You do not know how much reputed is to live as an autowalla. Living as an autowalla or living as a Police Inspector, you say is reputed?

Let me state a few points.

A police officer works on orders given to him by superiors.

An autowalla works on his own orders.

A police man can't take leave without permission.

Autowalla need not inform anyone.

A police man needs to salute superiors.

Autowalla need not salute anyone.

A police man enjoys decipline.

Autowalla enjoys freedom.

Nobody dreams of becoming a watchman either, or a sweeper, or a security guard, or a chaiwallah. So does that mean those services should be outlawed?

There are many kinds of jobs for every person. One which he dreams to do. The other which he likes to do. Then which he do not dislike to do (may be along with your dream). Then one which you will be forced to do. And there will be some which you will never ever do. Under any circumstances you won't do those jobs.

If you can't do a job (ex. hanging man) under any circumstances, you can't ask for that job to be done by anyone else.

Again if you are forced to do a job (ex. a watchman), strictly speaking you can't ask someone else to do that job also. But you may work as a watchman if you get decent salary.

This is the difference.

And from the comments of Nandini Deka on this issue, I think she won't hang a man, even if she is payed a lack rupees.

But what if that much money is given for working as watchman?

Jayan, according to your argument, our army shouldn't go to war either because they would be killing people, something you aren't ready to do. So let them throw away their guns and surrender.

Let me copy and paste my earlier comment.

The topic is "Capital Punishment". Not killing.

Killing will be needed some times. Like when a foreign county attacks us. Every citizen of our country must do that job as a duty.

But killing a man (let him be the soldier of the other army) in jail is different.

If you want one more example,

"Why no one dream to be a hangman while many dream to be an army man"?

yes I can Jayan ! I can hang them ...shoot them or  whatever it takes to make the world a better place for my daughter and millions of other innocent people out there ... and believe me my hands won't shake . 

Thank you tangy tomato twist for giving your opinion.