India vs China Border tension ! Debate guys

umesh derebail
umesh derebail
from Mumbai
8 years ago

China has been exerting itself on Indian borders in multiple ways, one by setting up strategic camps, laying first class roads, diverting the Brahmaputra waters, building up substantial army presence with the sole objective of snatching away portions of North East from Sikkim, Bhutan, Nepal, AP and Assam.  Once they have fortified their presence all over they would definitely like to pick up a skirmish according to me.  The balance of trade is in their favour and we are obligated.  Under the current scenario, the only option remaining for India according to newsreport is go for massive land army recruitment, may 5 lakhs in number, with 1 lakh permanent and 4 lakhs temporary personnel trained to invade the enemies territory.  Chinese have betrayed us once in 1962, and i believe they will do it once again.  Debate guys

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China can never be trusted.' sardar vallabhbhai Patel had warned in 1950 in a strong letter to Nehru Ji. But alas. We can only hope for the best and strategic mastermind should be at full toos play now. One can neither trust America on this. We have to Learn to be self dependent. Any anomaly and sacrificial cowardly tendency to lookup to America for guidance emerges. We won independence by nonviolence. That may be a abhishaap our generations is carrying on. We are a secular nation. Largest democracy in the world. But literacy very poor which affects right persons to comeup into politics. Full of sinister gamings. Security of it's citizens is at the mercy of God. Need of the hour is to have shrewd capable homeminister. Not an easy task. One has to be in a position to assert strongly it's rights.
Ram A Singh
Ram A Singh
from Silvassa
8 years ago

Militarily we some how we are  capable to thwart the misadventure of China  but politically we are a cowrdice Nation. Having a nonalingment view is a cowrdice view like .

Monica
Monica
from New Delhi
8 years ago

This is my essay topic too :P BTW I am looking at their relations from realist and Complex interdependence perspective or simply put- China needs us for trade, change in biased economic regimes and environment issues.These areas are an important lot and China can't simply risk losing them by fighting war.War is costlier than benefits of cooperation.China is doing all this to assert itself like any power would, India aint far behind.If we catch up (IF used because of the negative vibes UPA II is gvng wid regards to growth) we would also assert ourselves.The gains China make with this aggressive Foreign policy will be minor and more symbolic and China is likely to use them for arm twisting us.We are no saints.If china patao-es our south asian neighbours, dnt we go to SE asia to skirt China?? Hvnt we warmed upto Japan and US to contain China? Right now China has power but not absolute power,its not a hegemon :D My calculation says that How relations play between the two depends on How better India does economically,If we catch up and may be out perform, we are gona be worse then China as a realist and if we don't den our FP makers wud have a tough time dealing with China.

Monica Ji, you have done full homework on it, and I am rather more than impressed at your sane approach to this sacred issue. Thumbs up. China is trying to jeopardize economy of competitive nations by bombarding cheap products. Which sends their factories to go bust and it Cleverly makes them dependent entities. I remember two years ago China holding three trillion $ reserve threatened America of shifting reserve to another module. Same very day fed chief , Ben bernanke and team was in china to show them the dire effects they were going to get into. Matter resolved the same very day. India cannot dictate those terms as per my thinking. so policies of stringent nature to save and run our companies should be foremost priority.
umesh derebail
umesh derebail
from Mumbai
8 years ago
According to me the Chinese economy is bursting at its seams and economists are predicting a bubble burst. How are they going to create consumption unless they risk partial destruction ? Plus they have accumulated all outdated weapons which have to be used and destroyed in a war. It is more like China is itching for a war rather than India. This time around i feel it is going to be comprehensive ? Let us hope this scary scenario does not come true....but it seems inevitable may be dateline of 21/12/2012 is crucial here....let us hope it is fiction of imagination
Kuch nahi hoga Umesh Ji, that is no deadline.
umesh derebail
from Mumbai
8 years ago

Pramod bhai, kum se kum ek aadmi ka attention thoda controversial topic se hatana hai, is forum me aisa jumke bais hone do, aap toh ishara samaj gaye na

Nitin
Nitin
from Vadgam
8 years ago

I seen news on one TV Channel that china preparing to attack like a Kargil. China also looking for capture Kargil hill and hence china preparing for such a war against india....can we ready for that ? 

 

Nitin

From Vadgam (BK)

umesh derebail
umesh derebail
from Mumbai
8 years ago

I hope we can barter a deal of giving up Bangladesh to Pakistan which will keep them busy quelling the rebellion over there.  I won t be surprised that China may invade Bangladesh to prove their superiority over India.  It would be poetic justice of sorts if Bangladesh is handed back to Pakistan.  It will at least divert their attention from Kashmir.  

It's not our chic that we can give anybody. It's an independent nation. Umesh Ji . More important thing that I see is the political nutty scenario in India.
umesh derebail
from Mumbai
8 years ago

Pramod Bhai i understand the predicament, but it is true that Bangladesh attained freedom because of India, now they are almost treating us enemies with their attitude.  It is better to recant and support for unification with Pak if it can win us some brownie points.

DS
from Mumbai
8 years ago
I dont think that it is remotely possible Umesh, even if it were, Pakistan will always have an eye on Kashmir... Even if it gets Bangladesh...
umesh derebail
from Mumbai
8 years ago

Let them get Bangladesh and see the trouble for Pakistan, they would be hard pressed to maintain their suzereignty over the territory.  It will keep them busy forever Smile

Mayur
Mayur
from goa
8 years ago

I am bit surprised, do you guys really think there can be a full blown war between india and china?. Both are nuclear nations with capabilites to launch missiles at the heart of the enemy nation. Both have one of the largest armies in the world with strong air force and navy. It will be a world war 3 kind of situtation. UN will never allow this.

Times have changed wars are no longer fought for pride, self estime or to prove ones superiority. All the recent wars have been fought due to economic reasons. The trade realtions between india and china have increased rapidly in recent years. Both the countries are important to one another. i dont think india or china can risk this trade realtions due to some border problems.

War is always the last resort. "The art of war" by sun zu also states that great wars are always won by minimum actual figthing. The real victory is not the maximum destruction of the enemy but maximum gains for oneself's country with minimum actual fighting.

umesh derebail
from Mumbai
8 years ago

Mayur, We are not war mongering but China seems to be itching for one maybe to test their army, secondly dispose off outdated weapons, thirdly to quell semblence of internal rebellion.  Maybe they will have a pact not to fire any nuclear missiles against each other.  China has been gunning for Sikkim and AP for a long time Smile

 

Jaidev Jamwal
from New Delhi
8 years ago

I'm not a bit suprised by your naievty.

First of all, UN can't do diddly squat. It couldn't stop wars in Iraq, Kosovo, Bosnia, Afghanistan. It's just a small cat which can sharpen it's claws on banana republics like those in Africa. Talk of UN intervention in India China conflict is laughable.

Even for a comparatively simple issue, nobody could do anything when China, North Korea, Pakistan traded in nukes and missiles

 

2nd, you seem to forget Kargil war which happened only a year after both India and Pakistan demonstrated their nuclear capability. So you can rest your theory of nuclear weapons being  a detternt too.

 

Your point of nature of war is partially correct if one assumes that trade in Indo-China equation is more important for China then their goal of global supermacy. India is the biggest obstacle for them.  As Umesh mentioned in his post

 

According to me the Chinese economy is bursting at its seams and economists are predicting a bubble burst. How are they going to create consumption unless they risk partial destruction ? Plus they have accumulated all outdated weapons which have to be used and destroyed in a war. It is more like China is itching for a war rather than India 

China has quite a few reasons to start a conflict with India. They've settled almost all of their border disputes except with India and show no inclination of doing so either.If a political movement against Chinese ruling elite starts, starting a conflict just to divert the attention will be quite tempting solution for them.

Mayur
from goa
8 years ago

@Jaidev Jamwal

Nice to meet the military stratergic expert on indiblogger. If you are selected on any important strategic position in india then god help us.

Though we all know UN can be partial sometimes, you can't say that they have done nothing to stop wars in the recent years. Iraq and Afgahnisthan were different issues.

Afghanisthan :- USA didnt actually went in war with the nation of afghanisthan, it was war against Taliban and other terrorist groups. USA was not alone britain, germany, italy, france too actively participated in it even the afghanisthan military was helping. And for your info NATO sent the most number of soldiers for the war so you can infer that UN was supporting the war. The issue in afghanisthan were very grave there were rumours of taliban trying to obtain nuclear weapons and then 9/11 happened. No country would keep quiet when they such terrorist threats.

IRAQ:- There was global fear that iraq was in position of nuclear weapons. UN tried to check whether iraq qas in possestion of weapons of mass destruction, but there was no coperation by the saddam hussein regime. There was internal unrest due to the cruel dictatorship of saddam hussein.  So measures where taken against the dictatorship. Here too USA was not alone britain and other countries also participated.

Nobody can point fingers at each others without concrete proof. UN can't just go accusing everybody under minor suspisions.

Kargil was rather a minor issue you can't go deploying nukes because some 200-300 soldiers crossed the LOC. And please read posts properly before babbling about something. I said there can't be a full blown war between india and china. I never said there can't be some minor clashes between the 2 nations in the border regions.

I seriously don't think china has ambitions to become global ruler or anything. Yes economic super power that they are aiming for and i am sure they will achieve it in less than 2 decades. China is taking serious stance on the border matters because they don't want to project themselves as weak. I also don't think there is any major unrest china to divert the public's attention by starting war. Hu Jintuo is one of best leaders china has ever had, i wish our PM would be like him who could take firm decisions and stand by them no matter what. 

 

TF Carthick
TF Carthick
from Bangalore
8 years ago
China will never do a direct attack on us. They will only carry on a proxy war through Pakistan. So I feel India should also carry on a proxy war against China by supporting armed struggles from the back in Xianjiang and Tibet and also giving moral support in forums like UN. That will keep the Chinese occupied. All Jehadis should be redirected towards the Uighur cause. In fact followers of Islam are being really prosecuted in China compared to India where they are molly coddled. RAW should work to make the independent Jehadis see the point and direct more attention to China. And we should arm nuclear missiles and keep them all directed at all key Chinese cities. That will be a deterrant keeping them from seeking direct war if they get irrirated with the proxy war.
umesh derebail
from Mumbai
8 years ago

We can never underestimate Chinese, we should be prepared for an all out war as such, hopefully without triggering Nuclear weapons.  Let us hope the Chinese leaders realise that popular uprising like in Libya, Syria, Egypt etc would definitely inspire majority to carry out a revolution to throw out the old order in China. The day when old order is threatened they would be ready to unleash war with India.  This is the real danger.

TF Carthick
from Bangalore
8 years ago

@umesh - China will never fight us directly. They will fire at us from Pakistan's shoulder like Arjuna fired at Bhishma hiding behind Sikandi. China is not stupid to fight a large scale conventional war with India. It would be too costly. No country does it these days. Picking on little nations with technological inferiority like Afghanistan and Iraq is one thing. Taking one a country of similar size is a different ball game. US would not dare any adventures with Russia. Chinese strategy is all about weakening India internally and splitting it into multiple small countries whose rulers China can control.

TF Carthick
TF Carthick
from Bangalore
8 years ago
I see some people talking about peace. It is my belief that there can never be true peace for India with China and Pakistan. The existense of India as a secular, democratic republic and succeeding poses an existential threat at an idealogical level to Pakistan and China. If Muslims are able to find better life in India than Pakistan, then the whole concept of Pakistan would be a failure and the common may feel the leaders cheated them through partition. So Pakistan don't want that to happen. Similarly if Indians are able to experience economic prosperity along with freedom, then the Chinese common man will feel cheated for having given up his freedom for the sake of economic prosperity and may rebel againts the rulers. So unless both China and Pakistan become secular democratic republics or India becomes a autocratic Hindu Rashtra, there can never be truly any peace. We can only strive to maintain the unstable equilibirium for as long as possible. Long back I had written two articles on this. http://luciferhouseinc.blogspot.com/2009/09/are-chinese-out-to-get-us.html http://luciferhouseinc.blogspot.com/2010/01/aman-ki-asha-paradox.html
Jaidev Jamwal
from New Delhi
8 years ago
Interestting points here. Agree with most of them
The fool, really benevolent , sane take.
umesh derebail
from Mumbai
8 years ago

I agree with your theory that Pakistan and China are itching for an all out war with India.  All logic points out to the fact that Pakistan is now in doldrums because of alienation from US aid.  Secondly Chinese economy which was growing rapidly because of exports is finding itself in a jam.  Further they have territorial ambition too.  Silently to keep up the communism bogey they are recruiting more and more military personnel which comes cheap considering the excess manpower.  The solution for both these countries if they don t want a war than :

China should abolish one child policy and be liberal on second child, one girl and one boy to maintain sex ratio.  This will ensure domestic consumption, it is as simple as that.

Pakistan should give up Kashmir and concentrate on rapid economic development.

The recent churing of events in giving MFN status to India for trading means that the Pakistanis have realised the importance of trade, maybe they would like to trade with their Muslim brothers in India.  So be it.

 

TF Carthick
from Bangalore
8 years ago

@Umesh - Wishful thinking. While you are about it, you might as well our leaders implement a strong Lok Pal bill, voluntarily declare all their ill appropriated assets and turn themselves in.

umesh derebail
umesh derebail
from Mumbai
8 years ago

Yes Jaidev, I agree with most of your points.  The Chinese are supressing internal rebellion with iron fist.  Secondly i strongly feel their economic bubble is bursting with over production and less consumption and finally their army has never been tested with their weaponary for a long long time.

If the Chinese leaders are serious about tacking the economic problem they have to abolish the single child theory for at least 5 years.  It would take care of the economic problem.

Coming to resentment among the public they need to be open about developments around the world by opening up News channels such BBC and CNN with chinese sub titles.

Finally the resolution for army being junked let them be involved in clean up of terrorists in Afghanistan & Pakistan, if possible take them over for a decade occupying the place of  US as soon as they vacate Afghanistan.

umesh derebail
umesh derebail
from Mumbai
8 years ago

GUYS let us challenge the CHINGS to take over Afghanistan and Pakistan and bring a semblence of peace and harmony.  Let US and Russia accept their failure to bring about change in these pockets.  Don t you think that it will keep CHINGS busy Smile

TF Carthick
from Bangalore
8 years ago

They won't even dream of it. Islamic terrorism is a problem created by US and China to limit communist influence in Afgahnistan and keep India under control respectively. So obviously they won't want to clean it unless jehad turns back and bites China the way it did US. Right now main stream Jehadis are all Pakistan controlled and do not show any sympathy to the Uighur cause. So this is fine with the Chinese. Why will thye shoot themeselves in the foot by curbing that. Right now Jehadis are wasting resources of both their rivals - India and US.

TF Carthick
TF Carthick
from Bangalore
8 years ago
If we are looking for idealistic solutions like Pakistan voluntarily giving up Indian obsession etc., we can go a step further. In this world of increasing communucation, countries do not make any sense. A single world government with an strong police force would be much more economical. That would save all the defence budgets and focus on improving lives of all humans. Practically it can never happen in our life time. Same is the case with Pakistan giving up the India obsession. They did not fight for partition to create a clone of India. And the corrupt politicians and military leaders need to keep the people preoccupied with India and Kashmir so that they can continue to loot them same as our politicians want us obsessed with caste and relegion.

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