Unresolved questions for IndiBlogger

Renie... have mailed you  my 2 cents on trying to do away with the voting system! Do let me know what do u think about it!

Hey Aashish, thanks for that - will get around to it asap!

i think "3G life" contest format is good where votes are not considered!

I agree with Manjunath. The quality should matter, not the quantity of votes.

Renie, I had given my thoughts in the earlier thread on voting, specifically around contests. I am repeating some of it here. I also mulled over voting in general and I think there are three distinct requirements for voting:

A. Identifying noteworthy posts on IndiVine to help readers find great content on the blogosphere on a wide range of topics (essentially 'best of the web')

B. Determining contest winners: Again great content, but specific to a particular contest which is generally around a theme

C. Bubbling up current trending topics

Let me cover B first as that seems to be a contentious issue. The guiding philosophy here is that a vote that is cast for any post should not be looked at in isolation but within context. If there are 100 posts and I vote for just 3 because I did not have time to read the remaining 97 (for whatever reason), that vote is treated the same as someone else who reads all 100 posts and votes objectively on each post. Any method that scales the value of a vote taking into consideration the total votes polled for a 'basket' of posts (more on this later) would achieve this.

Let us see how this addresses 'vote begging' which many people don't like. Let us say I convince 10 of my friends to vote for my post. If they all vote for just my post and no one else's, the value of that vote is (1/100)*10 = 1. But if one neutral reader read all 100 posts and voted on 75 posts that (s)he felt were good, the value of those votes will be (75/100)*1 = 0.75. i.e. an objective reader's vote would have higher value than people who try to game the system.

Let us look at A. and C. which are more fundamental requirements. Here, we have to setup the definition of 'basket' of posts. You can clearly see that 'Noteworthy posts' and 'Current trending posts' have an almost diametrically opposite characteristic when you compare them using the time dimension. i.e. 'Noteworthy posts' are classics that are popular over a long period of time and 'Current trending posts' are popular in the recent short term.

If we use the formula 

Notional value of vote for a given post by a user = (1 / number of posts in bucket)*number of votes for that post by the user

and compute the total notional value of the votes for a post across all users who voted for that post, we should be able to get the post's score within IndiVine in an unbiased manner (high score = potentially great post).

Of course, the system cannot tell the difference between votes cast by person X for 3 posts where X has read only 3 posts out of 100 and the case where a person reads all 100 posts and casts votes for the same 3 posts. This is such a rarity and can be ignored. 

//Any method that scales the value of a vote taking into consideration the total votes polled for a 'basket' of posts (more on this later) would achieve this//

read as: Any method that scales the value of a vote taking into consideration the total votes polled for a 'basket' of posts (more on this later) can be used to counter this.

See http://www.siliconfareast.com/ngt.htm for a description of how Nominal Multivoting or Nominal Group Technique works. This requires every user to rank every post, but we can get around that by making the highest rank for each post equal the total number of posts that a person has voted. For eg: if there were a total of 25 posts and a person voted for only 4 posts, then the highest rank among the three posts will be 4, next highest 3 and so on. You can then sum up the ranks across all users for each post and then sort them in descending order.

Being a part time teacher, living in a village where we do most of our work manually, studying for my exams and taking care of a special needs girl doesn't give me enough time to go around collecting votes. It is sort of demeaning thing to do and I don't feel good about it. I remember I had asked for comments initially for the youngistaan ka wow contest but after everything was over I knew I could not do it all over again ever. I do share my blog on 'MY' facebook wall and try to promote it which I feel is ok. I have got mails asking me to vote for a particular blog. At times I read the blog and then vote for it.  Sometimes I have to ignore it and move on. The problem starts when people start filling up my facebook wall with their blog links. That is a strict no with me. Not being part of any group that have made it scratch my back and I scratch yours policy to win contests on sites like Indiblogger, I know for sure I stand no chance to win any contest, no matter how hard I try or how good a blog I write. I totally gave up even trying until the recent contest where it was mentioned that we need not go around collecting votes. I am not a politician and cannot do that LOL.

Everthing said, I still do not understand who is responsible for what is happening on contests. We cannot pick up a single person and point a finger at him/her. Neither can we blame the people who have set up this wonderful platforms for us bloggers to share our blogs on. They are human and have their limits. We need to bring issues to their notice and wait for them to find a solution. 

Isn't it our own responsibility as good bloggers to inculcate some honesty within ourselves?   Are we blogging only for the sake of winning prize money? Why did we start blogging in the first place? I am absolutely sure no blogger has started blogging because s/he wants to make some quick money by winning contests. So why get deviated from the real cause behind our blogging by mere contest.

Hope bloggers will come to senses and the real blogging spirit will prevail......

this is a serious dilemma, a dull phenomena where just best faadu  writers waiting for jury to decide their fate., no body interested in reading and asking votes, smaller entities just watching dumbfounded with awe. growth of indie community on slowest pace as no body would be bothering to ask any face book friend to enter indie to vote fr him. 

My feelings as a newbie, is that one ought to be a sports man and see the plain game,

try to make new friends, because no matter how great a writer I am, no one is going to read my post, unless we are friends.

we should open our horizon of ego centricity and learn how we can gain readership world wide.

we are here for that.

Some bloggers in their astound egotism, think if any one has asked a favour of a vote , he has begged,. but my dear friend if you do term it as begging, what have you done. turned him down,  is no probs, but having the cheek to defame him and call him by slandering names, 

this is no sportsmanship friends,.

we ought to grow, with healthy attitude.

and voting is a good and prievileged right and I vouch for it. strongly.   

well may be begging was a tad too much to call, but certanily, no one appreciates that. a give and take isnt healthy for others. think of it, as Kadambari has said, the article with more votes get read first. Now if that is the case, the ones that are lower down wont ever be read, how good or the best they are.

if then, the ones who are lower down the order start doing it, it would be a flood of requests asking everyone for votes. and that would make ppl hate his network and being such an elite network, I think we should avoid that at all costs.

@Lohia

I agree with you.

@Hemal

I don't  agree that articles at the lower or buried under few pages won't get read! you can see in sharelife contest the tatadocomo panel selected 2 of the posts not from the first page but in between the lower order. i agree they judged well based on the content.

Hello Pramod,

Some bloggers in their astound egotism--> I disagree, it is not ego that stops some people to ask votes, there is something known as one's own principle. I agree just writing good piece is not enough but it has to be marketed, but asking for votes just to win a blog award is too much..

I personally do not write to impress anyone, so if someone reads what I have written and comments then I would be happy(happier if the comment is positive since I think i found a like minded person) but if nobody reads nor comments, then I do not personally think its a loss. We are writing blogs here and not some great literary works! Having said that, I would prefer fairly good vocabulary in anything we write.

Everysystem cannot be foolproof. To those who beg/ask for votes, I will unlink them from my networks or send a polite reminder that I would read their article, but I WILL not vote for it if i think its not deserving to me!

Regards,

@Manjunath, then tell me what is the validity of Vote counts?

@hemal

i am not talking about the validity or refrencing about votes! i was talking about your claim that lower order or buried posts aint get noticed!

and yes i agree with you, voting system should be removed and articles should be displayed in random so that every one feels that they had a fair chance in the contest!

@ Manjunath: The docomo contest was NOT based on votes, that is why the judging panel read even the lower order posts. Obviously, they HAD to read ALL the posts so they could select the winners.

But I was not talking about "a judging panel" not getting to the low-voted posts... I was talking abt "casual surfers on IndiVine". For example, if I visit IndiB after a week and decide to read some new stuff on the IndiVine, I will pick an interesting looking title from the first 2-3 pages only... not from the 10th page!

Just like if we do a Google search for something, we don't go to the 15th page of the search results... we click a few links from the first or 2nd page itself.

@manjunath, its true that lower end posts are not getting all the eyeballs that the top posts get

@Kadambari IndiBlogger should have an option to do a IVO...

IndiVine Optimization lol....

This 'against voting' thing has come up only after the stakes were raised! There were contests earlier too and no one played the blame game! Heck no one even bothered to 'beg' and even if some did, people didn't pay any heed to the 'beggars'!

Everyone wants to do away with the voting system, there were cries of doing away with the Ranking system as well, okay so what should be done to replace that? Did anyone come up with that idea?

The indivine the indirank are all products of the inditeam, after much brainstorming and effort put into it all! And you want it to be destroyed just like that! Be rational, and suggest some substitute of the system you want to be done with.

And, aren't we promoting dictatorship here? giving all the powers into one persons's (judge's) hand?  We are killing the democracy! By not favoring the voting system.

Any why are people flaming indiblogger here? The system is not corrupt! People are exploit the system!

Damn it, we were such a happy family before all this!

And just to be clear, I am not taking any sides!

No no Addy! I AM thinking about this in my mind... just went to the kitchen to get the food ready! :p

Yes, no one used to make life hell for us by repeated vote-begging until the prizes got bigger.

Ranking system is beautiful, in fact the idea I'm working on... to replace the current system of contest judging, might include that too. Just give me some time... let me get all the details in my mind first before I post them here.

Btw, Hemal has a point... if the IndiB community doesn't grow, then where's the WIIFE (What's In It For Me) for the Indi team? Why should they bother spending time & energy looking for sponsors and getting everything in place?

Also, if the sponsors don't get publicity to a large network, then why would they sponsor a contest in the first place?

So see Addy, I have been churning things in my head! :P

An aside... Sourav mentioned in the previous thread... if 30,000 people like the community, there will always be a handful who don't. But don't take it to heart. Even Nitish Kumar had to face this, despite all the good work he's done in Bihar! Sighhhh...

Anyways... going to eat now... will be back after some time with more details of what's cooking inside my head...

My approach:

Given: Every problem has a solution.

Step 1: List all the problems, list all the outputs required.

Step 2: List all the inputs available.

Step 3: Find a way to get from 2 to 1.

:D Cheers!

A typo:

*WIIFE = WIIFM :p

Ideally a combination of Public votes and Content literate people should be judging the whole process of deciding a victor.

We are democratic for sure, here we shouldnt drag the real world democracy. In real world too, the bells and whistles have to be stopped before actual voting. Here, while the Voting goes on, people still publicise and ask and return votes as a favor. I dont see this as democracy.

No doubt that IndiRank and IndiVine are beautiful products and we shouldnt alter them from what they have evolved to become now. We still are a happy family dude.

The Contests are hotting up, the prize money is much more, 50K in cash sounds bells for everyone. Greed sets in. Its all good but only if the greed is to write better and not to beg for votes.

@ addy, bro, previously the amount was small, and in kind,

Now, its 50k and caught the eye of everyone.

If they reduce the prize money and reward more entrants , 50k divided in to 5 = 10k , then more people will get the prize and for miniscule amount , there will not be much offensive strides taken. 

Okay! Thats a good approach Kadambari! Let's work on this!

I ma new to Indiblogger and one thing that struck me in the span these few days is how some people always numerous votes for all their posts!

Initially I would read the most popular ones, but then most of them turned out to be <i>just any other post on which i would not like to  spend me time on</i>. then I would go to a random page and pick out a random post, and trust me I found some really interesting ones.

So I guess the whole vote thing doesn't make much sense to me.

Also, I can sense there are some issues doing rounds here. As a newcomer I feel I am in no position to comment on them but all the blaming and &^%$-spitting makes me want to stay out of the site, a feeling which I am sure  would be shared by any newcomer. Why not make things more pleasant and concentrate on what the priority should be- Blogging- rather than problematizing every word posted on the site.

Happy blogging.

Best.

It hurts us for sure if you feel like stay outta the site.

I am with Hemal on this, it hurts us too!

But, please understand that this is just a phase and will fade away, and I guess the issue is fading away, with the community rising and taking step to put it in a sack and move on. We are working on making it as good as before, even better!

Hope you have a great time here! You will I'm sure, we all enjoy being a part of indiblogger!

I hope things work out soon because I can see how good a platform it is to come across fellow bloggers.

*fingers crossed*

Amropali, yes we are trying to work out. You too can chip in your two cents on this... and yeah, dont talk of walking away from us, it hurts. 

As addy said, we always making efforts to make it good, the better and the best. this is a community driven site and thats the beauty for being an IndiBloggerean... 

Apart from the above, one thing heavily in demand was Smileys :)

We need more smiley Renie.. See what can you do about that?

Anything solid coming on yet?

dont know dude! hope it does... 

@addy, we can see ,in 3g life contest, the silence , no euphoria of asking votes,. 

Thats great! Lets hope this continues! 

Hey All,

Im a new to IndiBlogger. Frankly speaking the excitement i had before getting accepted is fading away. Few things i noticed here -

• Everybody is hooked to ranking
• Self Promotion seems to be rampant
• Most Importantly, new comers are lost among the favorites.

I thought the soul of blogging was to appreciate and share with each other, good content. Agreed we all want people to read our blogs (i do too). But frankly this platform is so flooded with blogs that it makes it extremely difficult for a newcomer to be seen. And as somebody pointed out before me, there are far more interesting blogs than the ones in the top 10 or 20. And the blog reviews section, which is supposed to be the only forum to showcase a new blog, does not seem to work for me. Lot of blogs waiting to be reviewed which the experienced bloggers are supposed to encourage if i'm not wrong. Or maybe i'm wrong in my judgement. Maybe i'm supposed to be patient and wait for people to see my blog. I do not know. I wanted to join IndiBlogger to network with like minded bloggers. Hope that happens. Once again if i'm wrong in my judgement, i apologise for the same.

Hey Jayanth!

First of all welcome onboard!

I can understand the excitement of a newcomer at indiblogger, cause I myself am quiet new here! Let me take your questions one at a time.

Ranking, yeah! That's something everybody here is excited about, cause thats like a report card to our last months blogging! I personally find it an honor to have the IndiRank badge shining on my blog. Everyone has their own reason.

Self-promotion is a menace I agree. We (the IndiPolice) have been trying to habdle the issue and have been successful at that to some extent, but its tougher than it seems sometimes!

New comers lost among favorites? Frankly, I don't think so! Cause, I did not feel that when I came here (March 2010). And so did many other indibloggers! It all depends on your participation.  I had my blog post in the top ten in my second or third week here!

IndiBlogger promotes new bloggers and good content!

And for, interaction with other bloggers? We have some awesome platforms for that! Starting with this very forum! Its a great place to share ideas and thoughts. I have gained a lot from this forum as a blogger even as a human being! Then there are indimeets organised all over India, you can participate in that and know fellow bloggers in a totally different perspective! You can even attend the meet online on twitter! with the hashtag #inditweetmeet, visit indistream for details.

Hope you have a great time here buddy! We all do!

jayanath you are not wrong. i agree with you very much. I am also new here.

I am supporting what you said, not with any negativity.  But something has to be done to take away this feeling from the new-comers that their posts are not getting attention.

Unfortunately the methods that are suggested here to get more visibility among other bloggers are seemingly not working here.

One such thing suggested is net working.  But does it work?. Post-promotion I think should be in the name of the content.  But if it is for I promote you and you promote me back because we are part of a net work, will it be in the interest of the content.  But that is easy for those who have already formed a net work.

This my be the reason, I beleive, why we  always see posts from the same people on the front page or among the top 10 or 20. Please I do not have anything against them :).but how would a blogging set up be fair if the posts from the same people are always on top.  Is it because they can come up with posts that are always better than that of others? if that is so, I withdraw my question.  But how do you know that?

Please i am asking for suggestions and answers not criticising anybody.  We are all part of one group. And Indiblog is one of the best in so many matters. But how can we all be resoanbly happy here?

Hey Addy

Thanks for the reply..i can agree with you partly on what you said..and as Mr.Prasanna Raghavan has pointed out...there seems to be a network where people rate thier respective blogs based on a covenant..does everybody read everybody's posts? and are the so called top bloggers (no grudge) making extraordinary posts everytime? i don't think so. 

This is how i see it. Top blogger due to his higher indirank is able to move to the top of the chart faster. Quality of content posted by top blogger is not on a steady scale. Photography blogs are a class apart. But when it comes to words and sentences, there seems to a sheer incline towards one end of the spectrum. Hope you get what i mean. And being a avid reader i have been actively commenting on a number of blogs which piqued my interest.

All i ask for, is greater visibility for newcomers, cos this is not a rat race where only the good ones rule the roost. Bad ones can also be shown, they are THE ones which need more attention cos upper level bloggers can help improve the bad posts. But i also accept the fact that bad posts will obviously not draw a crowd. But how will a newcomer know if its good or bad when his post is completely overshadowed by the posts made by popular bloggers?

When i go to the IndiVine page, i myself am inclined to read only the all time favorites or the favorites from the past 48 hours. What about the rest? Im sure there are kickass posts which are waiting to be read.

Renie if you are reading this, i'm all ears!

Jayanth,

I would like to answer some of your concerns, hoping you find it content.

I am sure you are saying everything that has been discussed on this very page. The reason why the voting and contest is being played where I have suggested Random display and ranking to be hidden. 

Now if you have a top blogger, consider him as a celebrity. You will then know he/she will obviously be more read. Its human tendency. If you liked a few posts of one blogger, no matter how the next one is, you are going to read that.

Its similar to a novel where an author is reputed for his famous past work and his next book flies off the shelf just coz of his name and not what he has written. So, there are things that we have to accept. Its a general phenomenon, you cant change that at large.

I agree that everyone should get equal visibility. Which is fair enuf. 

Now on why the top IndiRanked blogs getting extra votes... its a challenge thrown open to you guys, get your blog above IndiRank 50. It only helps you make your blog much better.

Hey Hemal,

Thanks for the reply. I'm aware of the mechanism of IndiVine and IndiRank..Just that i'm thinking out aloud..and i agree with what you say..but what im typically concerned about is the number of unnoticed posts on IndiVine..some of them could be really good right? And being human we do tend to incline towards the most read column..but i'm generally opening an avenue for improvement and making it a fair deal. For instance, Why not the IndiBlogger team review posts made on IndiVine for a period of one week and put a section called "IndiBlogger Recommends" ?

By this way, all posts made during that period are read and showcased to others. Isn't that a more fair way to make sure everybody's, especially the newcomers needs are met? Instead of seeing the top bloggers day in and day out.

Hope this makes sense.

you cant ignore that fact that top bloggers would remain favorites and some times, they have a fan following. 

yes, including randomization will help all. 

Hemal Sha

The main point I raised was;

''Unfortunately the methods that are suggested here to get more visibility among other bloggers are seemingly not working here.''

Jayanath was also raising similar concerns. So I think it is appropriate to comment on your reply to him.

What the appeal was to come up with new ideas or at least open a discussion (from the side of the indiblogger team) to find new ideas on this.  Also to find out whether there are more people feeling in the same way and to come up with new ideas and as solutions. 

Jayanath has already suggested something new.

Instead your attempt was to come up with arguments to justify the present situation.:)

''Its similar to a novel where an author is reputed for his famous past work and his next book flies off the shelf just coz of his name and not what he has written.''

I strongly disagree with you .:) But I do not want to go any further on this point fearing i may indirectly hurt the feelings of some bloggers which is not my intention:)

Sincerely

Hey Prasanna its Jayanth not Jayanath :)

Yes, I stand by what I said. We have to think of the present situation before jumping onto a new one. the present thing isnt just arrived coz someone thought over it. it was again, a combined effort of the community. 

However you have got me wrong Prasanna. By the quote, what I mean to say that it always happens that way. Once its profound that the book isnt as good as the earlier one, its only learnt aft either reading reviews of the book or mouth - to - mouth conversations. Here, no such thing happens and hence, fans follow whom they like to read. 

no qualms that you think it differently. I just wish to clarify. I am fully supportive that blog posts on IndiVine has to Random. 

btw, its Hemal Shah

The previous contest has generated lots of heat and ill will. Let it be left behind and move forward.In my opinion, contest is a good food for thought therefore it should continue but avoid contest on 'Products' of the sponsors. After all how many blog post on the same product can interest readers! Let this job be left to copy writers of the advertising companies.

Hei Jayanth,

I am very sorry that I misspelt you name.

hemal shah,

Hemal,

sorry I misspelt your surname.

Now coming to the point. 

''We have to think of the present situation before jumping onto a new one''.

if I sounded urging to jump on 'to a new situation', that is not what i meant.  I meant there is a cry among the new comers, I did not mean only me.  I see lots of good content posts at the lower level. And if your position on that is what you said, I cannot do anything. But sadly the problem remains unresolved.

I believe in trying towards solving problems.

i am running a WP Premium theme giveaway, I need to know where I can post them.Where do I post giveaways?

How to add profile image I just can't get the way to do it can someone help me out?

http://www.indiblogger.in/faqs.php

read this

Thanks a lot now you can see my pic

I also agree with that topic. the results are not shown to Audience now...

I had asked for categorizing the blogs submitted for review so that we can directly visit and review only those blogs the subject matter of which we are interested in. Is this question being considered?

Hi Sanjay,

there is a blog review section the link is at the top right corner of this or the forum pag. I hope this is what you wanted.